Ryan Adams (2011)
Interview Background
You have to wonder how much of Ryan Adams’ reputation for being antagonistic comes from being scarred by inane interviews rather than being wilfully belligerent. While there were moments during our conversation where he became interrogative, this seemed to be driven by an interest in understanding the intensions of specific questions rather than being a whiny troublemaker. Even so, it appears some of his recollections here vary wildly to other witnesses; for starters, anyone who witnessed one of his pitch-black shows with The Cardinals would be well-placed to scoff at Adams’ suggestion the band never played in “complete darkness”.
I think it would have taken a lot longer than our allotted time for me to earn Adams’ trust and find him completely relaxed about talking about his art and achievements, but this interview found him respectful, thoughtful and offering only tiny peeks of irascibility. He's since become a pariah in the wake of a number of female artists' concerning #MeToo allegations, so I'll wait with bated breath for Adams' next move…
The following is an edited version of an interview first published in Rip It Up in October 2011.
Ryan Adams - Ingenious Pain
by Scott McLennan
Off the drugs, out of Manhattan and happily married to Mandy Moore, Ryan Adams stresses to Rip It Up that these days he’s far from the alt-country problem child of legend. Even though the tranquil vistas of Ashes And Fire, his first album of new material since his 2009, form his most honest and heartfelt collection of songs to date, Adams is still working through his pain.
For five years Adams has suffered from Meniere’s disease, an inner ear disorder leading to vertigo and tinnitus. It was the songwriter’s attempts to control his suffering – rather than simply being willfully problematic – which saw him perform gigs in near darkness for many years.
“Any show I made it through when I was as sick as I was seemed unbelievable,” Adams seethes. “I told people I was ill, but no one really gave two shits because it was more interesting that I would be doing something wrong. That was the archetype I somewhat fitted in those times – it was much easier for me to be the bad boy or enfant terrible as it made for better press than ‘Man Suffering From Debilitating Disease’.
“I don’t play in complete darkness, I just don’t have light shows. I play shows where the lighting didn’t inspire people to hold up their iPhones for the complete concert. You know, I don’t pretend to do things in a conventional manner that makes it easy for people to have some satisfaction in having the exact experience they want, nor do I think it’s any [artist’s] responsibility to present themselves that way. If I was to play a concert where there was 35 neon lights focused at the stage, there’d be somebody there to yell out ‘Turn the lights down!’.
“I play with lights now that can be as bright as you like, but they mustn’t shift. If you have Meniere’s disease and someone shifts the lighting on you while you’re on stage, your depth perception goes out the window. People who have Meniere’s disease can understand certain things: you can have vertigo simply by standing in a grocery store. I’ve been fighting this fucking disease since 2005, but the symptoms became so hardcore in 2007 that I could not live without some kind of treatment. I was so dizzy and nauseous I could barely function or play fucking shows. It took a year-and-a-half to even be at the stage where I could hear myself talk over a fucking guitar, or get out of bed without feeling like I was falling off the edge of the planet. Intermittently I had a nice and peaceful quiet life where if I decided to turn the lights down in my living room, it was nobody’s business but my wife’s.”
During Rip It Up’s half-hour conversation, each question posed to Adams results in a combative evaluation. Rather than being affronted by every query, it seems the musician’s lengthy and thoughtful responses capture him in an internal battle to reach his own fulfilling resolution.
Speaking to Adams two days after the 10th anniversary of September 11, the songwriter disputes his song New York New York and its accompanying video, which featured the World Trade Center in footage shot just days before the terrorist attack, offered people solace at a difficult time.
“I think the perception of what that song meant to people after 9/11 is wrong. It’s historically inaccurate and I think it’s been repeated in the press in a way that doesn’t tell the actual story. My song was not an anthem for 9/11 and the song was not a huge success. It never charted, but it’s sometimes reported in the press to be my biggest single ever. That’s an absolute fabrication. Songs off my album two albums ago were three times bigger than that album ever was, but it’s because people want to assume that song actually had something to do with my career. To be frank, it was never used in a marketing type of way and because I had the song pulled from being available to be used in that type of way. I think that what has happened is that over time – and because my career can’t be attached to any song or sound – people don’t understand that I’m an album artist and they have to reflect on New York New York as if that’s the explanation. In truth that wasn’t happening and I don’t think people weren’t listening to that or the radio or MTV at the time – they were watching the news and seeing what was happening.
“My video’s skyline shot was based on Friends, as I was obsessed with the show. Our video was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, since we were trying to do the same city sweep that they do in the preface part of the show. It was actually an in-joke for any Friends fans at the time. It just isn’t the way it’s been historically reported.”
The natural imagery of rocks, birds singing and flowing water on Ashes And Fire indicates that Adams’ new love of hiking has infiltrated his latest album.
“I think geography does play into my work. I live just inside one of the biggest urban parks in the country, so there’s coyotes and all kinds of wildlife.
“I’m a bit closer to nature than when I lived on the corner of West 9th St and Fifth Avenue,” he adds with a girly giggle.
The image of Adams as a hiker fits well with the natural bucolic ease of Ashes And Fire. Gone are the days when the heavy drug user would provocatively wear a cape and bumblebee slippers into petrol stations while on tour.
“I’m 36 years old and I’m living a very different life than I did then. I was a 28-year-old kid living out of a tour bus and I was conducting myself in a manner that made sense to me to get by, but it wasn’t like I was travelling the world punching people in the neck. If I went into a convenience store dressed in slippers I was probably looking at the absurdity of life on the road – not trying to initiate anger. That’s not who I am.
“Anyway, it’s the work that’s the sustaining thing. No one will care about those moments in 15 years, but somebody may care about the songs themselves.”
Ashes And Fire’s title track mentions Roosevelt pie – so what is it?
“You’ve gotta dig around old southern recipe books for Roosevelt pie, my friend. I love making food for other people and it’s a really tranquil, beautiful experience to have friends and family over and sitting around the dinner table. My grandmother was forever in the kitchen cooking something up, so I’m used to that idea of baking and bringing warmth into the home. I tend to be the one to cook in our house and it’s nice – I put on the radio, cut up some onions, get some ideas and it’s good times.”
Ashes And Fire (Sony)
Unpublished Interview Material
Your new-found love of hiking - was this change to a different setting a way of getting away from bad habits, bad influences or bad vibes?
“By asking that, do you think that the city would be giving me bad vibes?”
A change in environment can often lead to a different type of creativity and a different take on life.
“Well I think for me, travelling is enough for me to do that in general. There are urban and non-urban elements in my music. The album Cold Roses was swamped in references to Magnolia Mountain and Meadowlake Street and the peaceful valley. Geography is a responsibility of any kind of writer, specifically in my mind a songwriter, who is bound to their responsibilities. I think what you’re asking is an interesting question in terms of geography’s role in the album, and I’m not retorting it but it can’t be any more prevalent than it has been in the past. I come from the southern part of the United States, which is very rural and provincial, plus the state I was born in [North Carolina] has the beach, the red clay, the southern midlands and then the biggest mountain range in the whole of the United States. I think geography does play into my work.”
I can’t speak to you this week without reflecting on this time 10 years ago. How did you spend Sunday given it was the September 11 anniversary?
“I don’t remember what I did. I think I had a normal day.”
It wasn’t a time of reflection for you, as it was for a number of Americans?
“It’s quite different for me, since I lived in New York City when it happened and I had a very different relationship to that day than other people did. It’s not imagined for me as I literally lived there and there were people in my life who in either a direct or indirect way were profoundly affected and lost people. My processes would be different from other people because it isn’t abstract for me – it’s very real and I don’t really understand the difference between one day, two weeks or 10 years. I’m not a mathematical person so I can’t see how 10 years is more relevant than two years after, or five. It is what it is. I’d also preface that by saying it’s an undoable thing.”
[Here Adams refutes that the New York New York video proved popular in the wake of the September 11 attacks, as featured in the story above]. The video was played a lot here in Australia, so that’s interesting it wasn’t played much in your home state – or country.
“If there was some terrorist act on your home city and something was missing, would you really want to see someone playing music in front of it every day?”
I guess not, but on the flipside there was also the hit song released in the wake of September 11 about giving terrorists a boot up the arse [Toby Keith’s Courtesy Of The Red, White And Blue], so people react in different ways to a tragedy like that, as well as the memories.
“Right. It was shocking, but I know I didn’t want to be reminded of what was missing – I wanted to deal with the reality. Like everyone else, it was an extreme time and when something or someone has gone missing from your life and it’s vital, you don’t want to be inundated with it and nor should you be. That song isn’t even appropriate for that time, since it’s about my relationship with my ex-girlfriend who I moved to New York City to be with. The song says in jest that even though we weren’t going to make it and the relationship couldn’t go forward, I still love New York and I’m glad that I came here. It would have been a mistake to misinterpret its meaning, since it is frivolous compared to 9/11. What I’m saying about it and what should be said about are very different things.”
Ashes And Fire’s Dirty Rain reflects on a scenario after a disaster. What were you picturing when writing the lyrics?
“It’s a metaphor for troubled times and I don’t believe any of those things are meant to be taken literally. ‘Last time I was here it was raining, it isn’t raining anymore’ – it’s obviously supposed to be a metaphor for a relationship or for the way somebody feels about a situation, then the rest of the descriptions are painted in a way that makes them feel literal, although they are all metaphorical. It’s quite clear they’re metaphorical, yeah?”
Definitely, although I was interested to know if you were reflecting on a real event and entwining that with the emotional and personal metaphors you’re talking about. You speak about troubled times – is it hard to sing a song like Halloweenhead or any specific older songs these days because you’ve distanced yourself from those dark times?
“Why would that song suggest troubled times?”
You sing of ‘tricks and treats’ in your head, which it’s suggested referred to drug use. Are there songs in your back catalogue you find are difficult to play because you’ve moved on?
“I don’t necessarily think that song is about drugs – is that your take on it?”
Not necessarily, but yesterday I was looking online to clarify what other people thought that song was about. The line ‘What the fuck’s wrong with me’ indicates to me there’s trouble in your life, but you’re not too sure what’s causing it.
“Yeah, but I think that song was meant to be taken in a lighthearted manner. It’s tongue-in-cheek, I mean the song’s called Halloweenhead! (giggles) It’s not called Aneurysm or something dire, so it’s extremely light-hearted in nature. I think I have songs that are really literal in describing mental discomfort in a much more descriptive way, but then in Halloweenhead I also say ‘guitar solo’ as the synthesiser plays the solo, so by that point it should be clear it’s supposed to be really jovial. I understand if it’s taken out of context, but it’s not meant to be.”
When you finished your first run of shows in two years in June, did you go home with a stronger sense of achievement than when you’d been on the road in the past?
“My sense of accomplishment was always with me, because I live my life one day at a time. The music always comes first and it’s always the most important thing – image is bullshit and it’s all fiction. I am the person responsible for the songs so I keep my head on them. I will say that I had one of the most enjoyable tours of my life this last one, in fact it was the favourite one I ever did. More people seemed happy, as was I – maybe because of the direct simplicity of the concerts as well. With just a guitar or piano and lights that don’t change, you can see me and I just play the songs for people. I try to enjoy those moments with the audience and I love those people for wanting to share those evenings with me. I fucking cannot wait to entertain them and give them a break from their lives and hopefully take them to a different frame of mind. It’s an honour and privilege to do it."
You have to wonder how much of Ryan Adams’ reputation for being antagonistic comes from being scarred by inane interviews rather than being wilfully belligerent. While there were moments during our conversation where he became interrogative, this seemed to be driven by an interest in understanding the intensions of specific questions rather than being a whiny troublemaker. Even so, it appears some of his recollections here vary wildly to other witnesses; for starters, anyone who witnessed one of his pitch-black shows with The Cardinals would be well-placed to scoff at Adams’ suggestion the band never played in “complete darkness”.
I think it would have taken a lot longer than our allotted time for me to earn Adams’ trust and find him completely relaxed about talking about his art and achievements, but this interview found him respectful, thoughtful and offering only tiny peeks of irascibility. He's since become a pariah in the wake of a number of female artists' concerning #MeToo allegations, so I'll wait with bated breath for Adams' next move…
The following is an edited version of an interview first published in Rip It Up in October 2011.
Ryan Adams - Ingenious Pain
by Scott McLennan
Off the drugs, out of Manhattan and happily married to Mandy Moore, Ryan Adams stresses to Rip It Up that these days he’s far from the alt-country problem child of legend. Even though the tranquil vistas of Ashes And Fire, his first album of new material since his 2009, form his most honest and heartfelt collection of songs to date, Adams is still working through his pain.
For five years Adams has suffered from Meniere’s disease, an inner ear disorder leading to vertigo and tinnitus. It was the songwriter’s attempts to control his suffering – rather than simply being willfully problematic – which saw him perform gigs in near darkness for many years.
“Any show I made it through when I was as sick as I was seemed unbelievable,” Adams seethes. “I told people I was ill, but no one really gave two shits because it was more interesting that I would be doing something wrong. That was the archetype I somewhat fitted in those times – it was much easier for me to be the bad boy or enfant terrible as it made for better press than ‘Man Suffering From Debilitating Disease’.
“I don’t play in complete darkness, I just don’t have light shows. I play shows where the lighting didn’t inspire people to hold up their iPhones for the complete concert. You know, I don’t pretend to do things in a conventional manner that makes it easy for people to have some satisfaction in having the exact experience they want, nor do I think it’s any [artist’s] responsibility to present themselves that way. If I was to play a concert where there was 35 neon lights focused at the stage, there’d be somebody there to yell out ‘Turn the lights down!’.
“I play with lights now that can be as bright as you like, but they mustn’t shift. If you have Meniere’s disease and someone shifts the lighting on you while you’re on stage, your depth perception goes out the window. People who have Meniere’s disease can understand certain things: you can have vertigo simply by standing in a grocery store. I’ve been fighting this fucking disease since 2005, but the symptoms became so hardcore in 2007 that I could not live without some kind of treatment. I was so dizzy and nauseous I could barely function or play fucking shows. It took a year-and-a-half to even be at the stage where I could hear myself talk over a fucking guitar, or get out of bed without feeling like I was falling off the edge of the planet. Intermittently I had a nice and peaceful quiet life where if I decided to turn the lights down in my living room, it was nobody’s business but my wife’s.”
During Rip It Up’s half-hour conversation, each question posed to Adams results in a combative evaluation. Rather than being affronted by every query, it seems the musician’s lengthy and thoughtful responses capture him in an internal battle to reach his own fulfilling resolution.
Speaking to Adams two days after the 10th anniversary of September 11, the songwriter disputes his song New York New York and its accompanying video, which featured the World Trade Center in footage shot just days before the terrorist attack, offered people solace at a difficult time.
“I think the perception of what that song meant to people after 9/11 is wrong. It’s historically inaccurate and I think it’s been repeated in the press in a way that doesn’t tell the actual story. My song was not an anthem for 9/11 and the song was not a huge success. It never charted, but it’s sometimes reported in the press to be my biggest single ever. That’s an absolute fabrication. Songs off my album two albums ago were three times bigger than that album ever was, but it’s because people want to assume that song actually had something to do with my career. To be frank, it was never used in a marketing type of way and because I had the song pulled from being available to be used in that type of way. I think that what has happened is that over time – and because my career can’t be attached to any song or sound – people don’t understand that I’m an album artist and they have to reflect on New York New York as if that’s the explanation. In truth that wasn’t happening and I don’t think people weren’t listening to that or the radio or MTV at the time – they were watching the news and seeing what was happening.
“My video’s skyline shot was based on Friends, as I was obsessed with the show. Our video was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, since we were trying to do the same city sweep that they do in the preface part of the show. It was actually an in-joke for any Friends fans at the time. It just isn’t the way it’s been historically reported.”
The natural imagery of rocks, birds singing and flowing water on Ashes And Fire indicates that Adams’ new love of hiking has infiltrated his latest album.
“I think geography does play into my work. I live just inside one of the biggest urban parks in the country, so there’s coyotes and all kinds of wildlife.
“I’m a bit closer to nature than when I lived on the corner of West 9th St and Fifth Avenue,” he adds with a girly giggle.
The image of Adams as a hiker fits well with the natural bucolic ease of Ashes And Fire. Gone are the days when the heavy drug user would provocatively wear a cape and bumblebee slippers into petrol stations while on tour.
“I’m 36 years old and I’m living a very different life than I did then. I was a 28-year-old kid living out of a tour bus and I was conducting myself in a manner that made sense to me to get by, but it wasn’t like I was travelling the world punching people in the neck. If I went into a convenience store dressed in slippers I was probably looking at the absurdity of life on the road – not trying to initiate anger. That’s not who I am.
“Anyway, it’s the work that’s the sustaining thing. No one will care about those moments in 15 years, but somebody may care about the songs themselves.”
Ashes And Fire’s title track mentions Roosevelt pie – so what is it?
“You’ve gotta dig around old southern recipe books for Roosevelt pie, my friend. I love making food for other people and it’s a really tranquil, beautiful experience to have friends and family over and sitting around the dinner table. My grandmother was forever in the kitchen cooking something up, so I’m used to that idea of baking and bringing warmth into the home. I tend to be the one to cook in our house and it’s nice – I put on the radio, cut up some onions, get some ideas and it’s good times.”
Ashes And Fire (Sony)
Unpublished Interview Material
Your new-found love of hiking - was this change to a different setting a way of getting away from bad habits, bad influences or bad vibes?
“By asking that, do you think that the city would be giving me bad vibes?”
A change in environment can often lead to a different type of creativity and a different take on life.
“Well I think for me, travelling is enough for me to do that in general. There are urban and non-urban elements in my music. The album Cold Roses was swamped in references to Magnolia Mountain and Meadowlake Street and the peaceful valley. Geography is a responsibility of any kind of writer, specifically in my mind a songwriter, who is bound to their responsibilities. I think what you’re asking is an interesting question in terms of geography’s role in the album, and I’m not retorting it but it can’t be any more prevalent than it has been in the past. I come from the southern part of the United States, which is very rural and provincial, plus the state I was born in [North Carolina] has the beach, the red clay, the southern midlands and then the biggest mountain range in the whole of the United States. I think geography does play into my work.”
I can’t speak to you this week without reflecting on this time 10 years ago. How did you spend Sunday given it was the September 11 anniversary?
“I don’t remember what I did. I think I had a normal day.”
It wasn’t a time of reflection for you, as it was for a number of Americans?
“It’s quite different for me, since I lived in New York City when it happened and I had a very different relationship to that day than other people did. It’s not imagined for me as I literally lived there and there were people in my life who in either a direct or indirect way were profoundly affected and lost people. My processes would be different from other people because it isn’t abstract for me – it’s very real and I don’t really understand the difference between one day, two weeks or 10 years. I’m not a mathematical person so I can’t see how 10 years is more relevant than two years after, or five. It is what it is. I’d also preface that by saying it’s an undoable thing.”
[Here Adams refutes that the New York New York video proved popular in the wake of the September 11 attacks, as featured in the story above]. The video was played a lot here in Australia, so that’s interesting it wasn’t played much in your home state – or country.
“If there was some terrorist act on your home city and something was missing, would you really want to see someone playing music in front of it every day?”
I guess not, but on the flipside there was also the hit song released in the wake of September 11 about giving terrorists a boot up the arse [Toby Keith’s Courtesy Of The Red, White And Blue], so people react in different ways to a tragedy like that, as well as the memories.
“Right. It was shocking, but I know I didn’t want to be reminded of what was missing – I wanted to deal with the reality. Like everyone else, it was an extreme time and when something or someone has gone missing from your life and it’s vital, you don’t want to be inundated with it and nor should you be. That song isn’t even appropriate for that time, since it’s about my relationship with my ex-girlfriend who I moved to New York City to be with. The song says in jest that even though we weren’t going to make it and the relationship couldn’t go forward, I still love New York and I’m glad that I came here. It would have been a mistake to misinterpret its meaning, since it is frivolous compared to 9/11. What I’m saying about it and what should be said about are very different things.”
Ashes And Fire’s Dirty Rain reflects on a scenario after a disaster. What were you picturing when writing the lyrics?
“It’s a metaphor for troubled times and I don’t believe any of those things are meant to be taken literally. ‘Last time I was here it was raining, it isn’t raining anymore’ – it’s obviously supposed to be a metaphor for a relationship or for the way somebody feels about a situation, then the rest of the descriptions are painted in a way that makes them feel literal, although they are all metaphorical. It’s quite clear they’re metaphorical, yeah?”
Definitely, although I was interested to know if you were reflecting on a real event and entwining that with the emotional and personal metaphors you’re talking about. You speak about troubled times – is it hard to sing a song like Halloweenhead or any specific older songs these days because you’ve distanced yourself from those dark times?
“Why would that song suggest troubled times?”
You sing of ‘tricks and treats’ in your head, which it’s suggested referred to drug use. Are there songs in your back catalogue you find are difficult to play because you’ve moved on?
“I don’t necessarily think that song is about drugs – is that your take on it?”
Not necessarily, but yesterday I was looking online to clarify what other people thought that song was about. The line ‘What the fuck’s wrong with me’ indicates to me there’s trouble in your life, but you’re not too sure what’s causing it.
“Yeah, but I think that song was meant to be taken in a lighthearted manner. It’s tongue-in-cheek, I mean the song’s called Halloweenhead! (giggles) It’s not called Aneurysm or something dire, so it’s extremely light-hearted in nature. I think I have songs that are really literal in describing mental discomfort in a much more descriptive way, but then in Halloweenhead I also say ‘guitar solo’ as the synthesiser plays the solo, so by that point it should be clear it’s supposed to be really jovial. I understand if it’s taken out of context, but it’s not meant to be.”
When you finished your first run of shows in two years in June, did you go home with a stronger sense of achievement than when you’d been on the road in the past?
“My sense of accomplishment was always with me, because I live my life one day at a time. The music always comes first and it’s always the most important thing – image is bullshit and it’s all fiction. I am the person responsible for the songs so I keep my head on them. I will say that I had one of the most enjoyable tours of my life this last one, in fact it was the favourite one I ever did. More people seemed happy, as was I – maybe because of the direct simplicity of the concerts as well. With just a guitar or piano and lights that don’t change, you can see me and I just play the songs for people. I try to enjoy those moments with the audience and I love those people for wanting to share those evenings with me. I fucking cannot wait to entertain them and give them a break from their lives and hopefully take them to a different frame of mind. It’s an honour and privilege to do it."
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